Discussion:
[sword-devel] Partial Strong's and Robinson's <w>
Matěj Cepl
2012-03-05 11:00:37 UTC
Permalink
When I have finally CzeCSP in some shape, I am going through remaining
smaller (or more complicated) issues. One of them are special elements
marking things which are difficult to translate to Czech. E.g., I have
an element

<clen> (that?s ?article? in Czech) which marks a definite article
(otherwise not available in Czech, no Slavic language has articles,
except for Bulgarians) for words B?h (God), duch (spirit), slovo (word)
and pravda (truth). So for example in Mt 1:23 reads in the original
source file (with some other elements, not relevant for this example):

Hle, ta panna ot?hotn? a porod? syna a daj? mu jm?no Immanuel
co? v p?ekladu znamen?: <clen>B?h</clen> s n?mi.

(particular verse is translated into KJV as)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a
son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
interpreted is, <clen>God</clen> with us.

(interestingly even English translations don't have a definite article
here, although of course they could, but the questions of translation
are not my concern).

I have created this XSLT template for this:

<xsl:template match="clen">
<xsl:element name="w">
<xsl:attribute
name="lemma">strong:G3588</xsl:attribute>
<xsl:attribute
name="morph">robinson:T-DSM</xsl:attribute>
</xsl:element>
<xsl:apply-templates />
</xsl:template>

(i.e., add in front of the particular <w> element for the Greek word
?ho? which is the definite article).

Similarly, the Czech translation doesn't distinguish well between
original Greek words ?sarx? and ?soma? (which are however quite
important for understanding St. Paul?s theology) so there are special
elements <sarx> and <soma> (and some others) which I translate simply as:

<xsl:template match="sarx">
<xsl:element name="w">
<xsl:attribute
name="lemma">strong:G4561</xsl:attribute>
<xsl:apply-templates />
</xsl:element>
</xsl:template>

My question is whether it is right to mark in OSIS only something like
10 words with Strong's numbers and Robinson's morphology, or should I
stick with (what's in the printed Bible) various marks like *, ?, ?, ? etc.?

-----------------------------------------

Similar question is element <spoj> (from Czech ?union? == ?spojen??).
When the Greek expression needs to be present in multiple words, they
are in majority cases marked by the element <spoj>. E.g., Mt 3:17
<spoj>kter?</spoj> <spoj>??kal</spoj>, literally ?which was saying?.
Is there a way how to mark this with OSIS tags?

Blessings,

Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl<at>ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

Home is where ~/.bashrc is.
-- from Usenet
Peter von Kaehne
2012-03-05 13:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matěj Cepl
(interestingly even English translations don't have a definite article
here, although of course they could, but the questions of translation
are not my concern).
|The English translation bypasses the matter by using capitalisation
"the god" is our God.
Post by Matěj Cepl
My question is whether it is right to mark in OSIS only something like
10 words with Strong's numbers and Robinson's morphology, or should I
stick with (what's in the printed Bible) various marks like *, ?, ?, ? etc.?
I think this is largely up to you. You can do either. I would suggest
that having 10 definitive fixed and relatively frequent terms marked up
as Strongs will go some way to intelligently guess the rest. If you want
to create a Strong encoded Bible at some stage.

But on the other side, people will probably expect more and might react
in unfortunate ways when they see a text described as being Strong
encoded - and it is not, or at least not to their level of expectation.

But in the end it remains your decision.

Peter
Nic Carter
2012-03-05 22:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter von Kaehne
Post by Matěj Cepl
My question is whether it is right to mark in OSIS only something like
10 words with Strong's numbers and Robinson's morphology, or should I
stick with (what's in the printed Bible) various marks like *, ?, ?, ? etc.?
I think this is largely up to you. You can do either. I would suggest
that having 10 definitive fixed and relatively frequent terms marked up
as Strongs will go some way to intelligently guess the rest. If you want
to create a Strong encoded Bible at some stage.
But on the other side, people will probably expect more and might react
in unfortunate ways when they see a text described as being Strong
encoded - and it is not, or at least not to their level of expectation.
But in the end it remains your decision.
My thought is what if the reader doesn't have Strong's Numbers switched on in the software? Then it won't be visible. Instead do you want these markings to appear all the time for the user? If so, then using those other marks would probably be preferable?
Matěj Cepl
2012-03-06 18:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nic Carter
My thought is what if the reader doesn't have Strong's Numbers
switched on in the software? Then it won't be visible. Instead do you
want these markings to appear all the time for the user? If so, then
using those other marks would probably be preferable?
Then I actually DON'T WANT to show anything ... user should have always
an option to have just a clear Biblical text without any marks, stars,
whatsoever.

Thanks, that cleared the issue for me.

Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl<at>ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

If in desperation, read the documentation!
-- Brian D. Ripley, on R-help list
Matěj Cepl
2014-03-28 15:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Similar question is element <spoj> (from Czech ?union? == ?spojen??) in
the source document. When the Greek expression needs to be present in
multiple words, they are in majority cases marked by the element
<spoj>. E.g., Mt 3:17 <spoj>kter?</spoj> <spoj>??kal</spoj>, literally
?which was saying?. Is there a way how to mark this with OSIS tags?
This question somehow got missed, does anybody have any idea how to
marked this union of multiple words in OSIS?

Best,

Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review
of Pennsylvania, 1759.
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DM Smith
2014-03-28 18:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matěj Cepl
Similar question is element <spoj> (from Czech ?union? == ?spojen??) in
the source document. When the Greek expression needs to be present in
multiple words, they are in majority cases marked by the element
<spoj>. E.g., Mt 3:17 <spoj>kter?</spoj> <spoj>??kal</spoj>, literally
?which was saying?. Is there a way how to mark this with OSIS tags?
This question somehow got missed, does anybody have any idea how to
marked this union of multiple words in OSIS?
I'm not sure what you are asking. But I'll guess it is one of the following.

Many times when translating from one language to another there isn't a word for word mapping. In the KJV module we have all kinds of mappings.
In the following let aaa, bbb be words in Greek. Let xxx, yyy be words in Czech (or any other language).
Sometimes one word translates to several.
<w lemma="aaa">xxx yyy</w>
<w src="18" lemma="strong:G3177 lemma.TR:????????????????" morph="robinson:V-PPP-NSN">being interpreted</w>

Sometimes several words translates to one.
<w lemma="aaa bbb">xxx</w>
<w src="3 4" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G435 lemma.TR:? lemma.TR:????" morph="robinson:T-NSM robinson:N-NSM">husband</w>

Sometimes a word is translated into multiple words that are not adjacent.
<w lemma="aaa" split="1">xxx</w> <w lemma="bbb">yyy</w> <w lemma="aaa" split="1">zzz</w>
<w src="12" lemma="strong:G3856 lemma.TR:???????????????" morph="robinson:V-AAN" type="x-split-393">to make</w>
<w src="11" lemma="strong:G846 lemma.TR:?????" morph="robinson:P-ASF">her</w>
<w src="12" lemma="strong:G3856 lemma.TR:???????????????" morph="robinson:V-AAN" type="x-split-393">a publick example</w>

Sometimes a phrase as a whole can only be translated into another phrase.
<w lemma="aaa bbb">xxx yyy</w>
This is not common in the KJV except where we've included G3588 with the word it describes.
<w src="5 6" lemma="strong:G3588 strong:G3813 lemma.TR:?? lemma.TR:???????" morph="robinson:T-ASN robinson:N-ASN">the young child</w>

In Him,
DM
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Matěj Cepl
2014-03-29 00:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM Smith
I'm not sure what you are asking. But I'll guess it is one of the following.
Apparently, I have again missed how my question leads to much more
complicated world. What I meant is for example Matt.3.17, where in the
end is the Greek world eudokhsa (Strong?s No. 2106), which is translated
to Czech as ?jsem nalezl zal?ben?? (literally ?be(AUX 1SG) find(PAST)
pleasure?)
Post by DM Smith
Many times when translating from one language to another there isn't a
word for word mapping. In the KJV module we have all kinds of mappings.
In the following let aaa, bbb be words in Greek. Let xxx, yyy be words
in Czech (or any other language).
Sometimes one word translates to several.
<w lemma="aaa">xxx yyy</w>
<w src="18" lemma="strong:G3177 lemma.TR:????????????????"
morph="robinson:V-PPP-NSN">being interpreted</w>
Is it correct to use <w> element, even when I don?t have the values of
any of these attributes? I.e.,

<w>jsem nalezl zal?ben?</w>

Would any Sword front-end made some presentation for it?

Blessings,

Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

We can tell our level of faith in what God wants to do for us by
our level of enthusiasm for what we want God to do for other.
-- Dave Schmelzer
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DM Smith
2014-03-29 00:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matěj Cepl
Post by DM Smith
I'm not sure what you are asking. But I'll guess it is one of the following.
Apparently, I have again missed how my question leads to much more
complicated world. What I meant is for example Matt.3.17, where in the
end is the Greek world eudokhsa (Strong?s No. 2106), which is translated
to Czech as ?jsem nalezl zal?ben?? (literally ?be(AUX 1SG) find(PAST)
pleasure?)
Post by DM Smith
Many times when translating from one language to another there isn't a
word for word mapping. In the KJV module we have all kinds of mappings.
In the following let aaa, bbb be words in Greek. Let xxx, yyy be words
in Czech (or any other language).
Sometimes one word translates to several.
<w lemma="aaa">xxx yyy</w>
<w src="18" lemma="strong:G3177 lemma.TR:????????????????"
morph="robinson:V-PPP-NSN">being interpreted</w>
Is it correct to use <w> element, even when I don?t have the values of
any of these attributes? I.e.,
<w>jsem nalezl zal?ben?</w>
Yes that would be fine.
Post by Matěj Cepl
Would any Sword front-end made some presentation for it?
They would display the text in the same fashion as not being in <w>...</w>.

You can add type="x-spoj" if you like to retain information from the input.

Is there some particular way you think it should display?
Post by Matěj Cepl
Blessings,
Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
We can tell our level of faith in what God wants to do for us by
our level of enthusiasm for what we want God to do for other.
-- Dave Schmelzer
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Matěj Cepl
2014-03-29 01:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM Smith
They would display the text in the same fashion as not being in <w>...</w>.
You can add type="x-spoj" if you like to retain information from the input.
Good idea.
Post by DM Smith
Is there some particular way you think it should display?
Well, it is printed with some kind of braces around the words. Something
like

?jsem nalezl zal?ben??

But using too many of these braces and indexes leads to the classical
unreadable study Bible style of typography, which I don?t like much.
Some probably just some kind of gentle highlighting?

Blessings,

Mat?j
--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

"Push to test." (click) "Release to detonate..."
-- from a bugzilla quip list
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DM Smith
2014-03-29 01:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matěj Cepl
Post by DM Smith
They would display the text in the same fashion as not being in <w>...</w>.
You can add type="x-spoj" if you like to retain information from the input.
Good idea.
Post by DM Smith
Is there some particular way you think it should display?
Well, it is printed with some kind of braces around the words. Something
like
?jsem nalezl zal?ben??
But using too many of these braces and indexes leads to the classical
unreadable study Bible style of typography, which I don?t like much.
I don't like it much. At times I like turning off every markup but the text. Then I'm not distracted even by verse numbers as I listen to His word.
Post by Matěj Cepl
Some probably just some kind of gentle highlighting?
The highlighting we have is limited at this time to <hi type="xxx">...</hi> where xxx is the type of highlighting such as underline, italics, small-caps, ....

We don't have it but it might be nice to have markings that can be toggled. I could see having such for a critical apparatus of a Greek text.

If I were to design it, I'd use the <milestone marker="?" type="x-apparatus"/>

In Him,
DM
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