Discussion:
[sword-devel] One thing That I would like to see...
The Abbott Family
2005-02-15 22:58:26 UTC
Permalink
I would really like to see some of the modern Bible translations included in the Sword Project, like the NIV (New International Version) and the NLT (New Living Translation).

I use the NLT alot but I don't have it on the computer.

I realize that there are copyright issues and that Tyndale in this case MUST grant the Sword Project permission to use their Bible translation.

I have written a letter to Tyndale House only to have a man from their e-mail me and say that he couldn't grant my request because you guys would be giving it to people for FREE and they have contracted with all of these companies that are selling it.

======

Please someone down there at Sword please call, write and e-mail these GREEDY ORGANIZATIONS and ask them that they share with people who are less fortent or those who don't like to PAY FOR SOFTWARE and ask them to please let the Sword Project have access to their Bible translations.

========
The same goes for all of the Foreign Language Translations. I realize the GREAT need to them for alot of people.

Thanks,

David Abbott
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Chris Little
2005-02-16 00:43:02 UTC
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Let me clear up a few possible misconceptions...
Post by The Abbott Family
I would really like to see some of the modern Bible translations
included in the Sword Project, like the NIV (New International Version)
and the NLT (New Living Translation).
I use the NLT alot but I don't have it on the computer.
I realize that there are copyright issues and that Tyndale in this case
MUST grant the Sword Project permission to use their Bible translation.
I have written a letter to Tyndale House only to have a man from their
e-mail me and say that he couldn't grant my request because you guys
would be giving it to people for FREE and they have contracted with all
of these companies that are selling it.
Based solely on this account, it seems that the representative from
Tyndale is misinformed. First, while CrossWire might prefer to
distribute translations for free, we certainly do not require this of
publishers. We are willing to work with them to allow the sale of Sword
unlocks for modules.

Second, the idea that because they have contracts with other parties to
sell translations and therefore cannot give away copies also is just
plain bunk. Crazy stupid bunk. Unless made contractual promises with
licensees that they would not ever give away copies (which would, itself
be very, very stupid), this just false. My mind is reeling from how much
this reasoning just doesn't make sense.
Post by The Abbott Family
Please someone down there at Sword please call, write and e-mail these
GREEDY ORGANIZATIONS and ask them that they share with people who are
less fortent or those who don't like to PAY FOR SOFTWARE and ask them to
please let the Sword Project have access to their Bible translations.
Requiring licensing fees does not make an organization greedy.
Translations cost money to make and their translators are, both legally
and biblically, permitted to recoup that cost and to profit from that
work. The fact that Tyndale, Zondervan, Lockman, etc. require a
licensing fee in order to use their translations is their prerogative.
It certainly doesn't limit your access to the Bible. You can use a
couple of dozen English translations for free, many with modern
language. (The situation for non-English Bibles is often worse, I admit,
but national Bible societies still have the right to use and license
their texts as they see fit.)

CrossWire wants to make OUR work available, free of cost, to anyone who
would like to use our software. Although we would love for others to do
the same, we do not impose OUR values or the principles under which we
operate on third parties, such as publishers.

--Chris
DM Smith
2005-02-16 10:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Little
Based solely on this account, it seems that the representative from
Tyndale is misinformed. First, while CrossWire might prefer to
distribute translations for free, we certainly do not require this of
publishers. We are willing to work with them to allow the sale of
Sword unlocks for modules.
Two questions regarding this:
What changes would need to be made to Sword to allow the unlocking of a
locked module?
What progress has been made with publishers to provide locked translations?
Barry Drake
2005-02-16 16:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi there .......
Post by DM Smith
What changes would need to be made to Sword to allow the unlocking of
a locked module?
What progress has been made with publishers to provide locked
translations?
This has been said before, but I guess it's time to repeat it. Sword
has already the provision for handling locked (encrypted) modules. A
'locked' module simply requires the appropriate Cypher Key to be entered
into the .conf file for that module. Install Manager will do this
during installation if you have the key before installing the module.
So far it couldn't be simpler!

The problem is that most of the copyright holders would be willing to
negotiate an arrangement whereby The Sword Project would be allowed to
purchase the right to sell modules. Unfortunately there is no provision
within the project for operating on a commercial basis. So far, offers
have been made to many of the copyright holders that we would make a
locked module for them, and supply it to them free of charge so that
they could then arrange their own distribution. None of them have as
yet taken up this option.

Once again, could I say that a number of publishers (copyright holders)
have been deeply upset by the cavalier attitude of some correspondents
who have told them in the nastiest possible way that it is immoral to
earn a living by selling the bible. Please - if you write to copyright
holders, try to be very restrained, and leave them the right to earn a
crust or two!

Remember what Paul says about the Ox on the threshing floor!

God bless,
Barry Drake.

-- From Barry Drake (The Revd) minister of the Netherfield United
Reformed church, Nottingham see http://www.jesusinnetherfield.org.uk for
our church homepages).
Bryan L. Fordham
2005-02-16 18:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Drake
The problem is that most of the copyright holders would be willing to
negotiate an arrangement whereby The Sword Project would be allowed to
purchase the right to sell modules. Unfortunately there is no provision
within the project for operating on a commercial basis. So far, offers
have been made to many of the copyright holders that we would make a
locked module for them, and supply it to them free of charge so that
they could then arrange their own distribution. None of them have as
yet taken up this option.
I just sent off a request for permission to produce a Sword module
containing the NIV Bible. We'll see what they say. It would obviously be a
third-party module that would have to be purchased.
Post by Barry Drake
Once again, could I say that a number of publishers (copyright holders)
have been deeply upset by the cavalier attitude of some correspondents
who have told them in the nastiest possible way that it is immoral to
earn a living by selling the bible. Please - if you write to copyright
holders, try to be very restrained, and leave them the right to earn a
crust or two!
Remember what Paul says about the Ox on the threshing floor!
Yes. And remember that he never said the ox owned what he threshed. 8)

--B
Daniel Glassey
2005-02-16 20:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan L. Fordham
Post by Barry Drake
The problem is that most of the copyright holders would be willing
to negotiate an arrangement whereby The Sword Project would be
allowed to purchase the right to sell modules. Unfortunately there
is no provision within the project for operating on a commercial
basis. So far, offers have been made to many of the copyright
holders that we would make a locked module for them, and supply it
to them free of charge so that they could then arrange their own
distribution. None of them have as yet taken up this option.
I just sent off a request for permission to produce a Sword module
containing the NIV Bible. We'll see what they say. It would obviously
be a third-party module that would have to be purchased.
If you have $10,000 and can guarrantee royalties then they may discuss
it with you - that is what Zondervan require. afaik Zondervan sell their
own software with the NIV so I don't think they will sell a sword module
themselves. There are more translations than the NIV so if Zondervan
don't want to distribute it for our software that is their choice. I
know there are commercial bible software people (Hi guys :) ) on this
list and afaiu they haven't had it easy dealing with Zondervan, so don't
feel too bad that we aren't going to get the NIV.
Post by Bryan L. Fordham
Post by Barry Drake
Once again, could I say that a number of publishers (copyright
holders) have been deeply upset by the cavalier attitude of some
correspondents who have told them in the nastiest possible way that
it is immoral to earn a living by selling the bible. Please - if
you write to copyright holders, try to be very restrained, and
leave them the right to earn a crust or two!
Remember what Paul says about the Ox on the threshing floor!
Yes. And remember that he never said the ox owned what he threshed. 8)
OK, subject to anyone objecting I am asking to take over copyright
duties (I have emailed people already with some ideas but Troy is
offline at the mo).

In the meantime, if anyone here is thinking of sending any letters or
emails to copyright holders please don't. As Barry says, it is
counterproductive. Contact me with what you want to say and if it is
appropriate I will decide what to do.

Anyone that has sent recent emails please forward them to copyright at
crosswire dot org

Regards,
Daniel
Chris Little
2005-02-16 23:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Glassey
OK, subject to anyone objecting I am asking to take over copyright
duties (I have emailed people already with some ideas but Troy is
offline at the mo).
I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I object to the idea of
your taking over copyright duties because I fear that you don't know
what a huge task you're taking on and that you'll eventually quit the
project altogether. :) But if you really think you want to do this, I
don't object.
Post by Daniel Glassey
In the meantime, if anyone here is thinking of sending any letters or
emails to copyright holders please don't. As Barry says, it is
counterproductive. Contact me with what you want to say and if it is
appropriate I will decide what to do.
Yes, please don't. It makes us look bad. I think I'm on record as having
that position and being of the opinion that the whole premise behind the
copyright page, as it stands now, is horrible. I'm unaware of any time
that any letter writing campaign to release content has succeeded.

And the little "locked" links on the website should definitely go away.
They're incredibly confusing to users and misrepresent the actual state
of affairs.

--Chris
DM Smith
2005-02-16 23:51:39 UTC
Permalink
I think that until locked modules are supported by crosswire that there
should be no mention of them.
As I poked around, looking in the application, the application's help,
the web site's module pages, the web site's explanation of locked
modules, the server's listing of zero length files which are created by
people trying to download locked modules, I became convinced that it is
confusing.

I've looked at the JSP for the module pages and I think that it would be
easy to change it to not list locked modules altogether.
If we can come to agreement as to what should be done, I would be
willing to do the work.
Post by Chris Little
And the little "locked" links on the website should definitely go
away. They're incredibly confusing to users and misrepresent the
actual state of affairs.
DM Smith
2005-08-24 00:14:43 UTC
Permalink
I realize that this is a late reply to this note, but I think that it
pertains to the most recent thread regarding copyrights. Daniel if you
meant it when you wrote it and if you still mean it, perhaps this would
be a good time to help direct the activities of Jonathan and others.

If they are going to contact the copyright owners of the copyrighted
material that is on Crosswire (in order to confirm their former
permission) as representing Crosswire, I think it might be wise to
create "official" correspondence for this matter.
Post by Chris Little
Post by Daniel Glassey
OK, subject to anyone objecting I am asking to take over copyright
duties (I have emailed people already with some ideas but Troy is
offline at the mo).
I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I object to the idea
of your taking over copyright duties because I fear that you don't
know what a huge task you're taking on and that you'll eventually quit
the project altogether. :) But if you really think you want to do
this, I don't object.
Post by Daniel Glassey
In the meantime, if anyone here is thinking of sending any letters or
emails to copyright holders please don't. As Barry says, it is
counterproductive. Contact me with what you want to say and if it is
appropriate I will decide what to do.
Yes, please don't. It makes us look bad. I think I'm on record as
having that position and being of the opinion that the whole premise
behind the copyright page, as it stands now, is horrible. I'm unaware
of any time that any letter writing campaign to release content has
succeeded.
And the little "locked" links on the website should definitely go
away. They're incredibly confusing to users and misrepresent the
actual state of affairs.
Bryan L. Fordham
2005-02-17 00:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Glassey
If you have $10,000 and can guarrantee royalties then they may discuss
it with you - that is what Zondervan require. afaik Zondervan sell their
own software with the NIV so I don't think they will sell a sword module
themselves. There are more translations than the NIV so if Zondervan
don't want to distribute it for our software that is their choice. I
know there are commercial bible software people (Hi guys :) ) on this
list and afaiu they haven't had it easy dealing with Zondervan, so don't
feel too bad that we aren't going to get the NIV.
Yes, I've read about the cost of if before. But I sent off the letters
anyway.
Post by Daniel Glassey
OK, subject to anyone objecting I am asking to take over copyright
duties (I have emailed people already with some ideas but Troy is
offline at the mo).
In the meantime, if anyone here is thinking of sending any letters or
emails to copyright holders please don't. As Barry says, it is
counterproductive. Contact me with what you want to say and if it is
appropriate I will decide what to do.
Dunno if that's aimed at me or not 8)

The letters I've sent (3 in total) have no editoralizing in them. I
state what i want to do (make sword modules available) and ask about the
cost of royalties. That's it. If they actually respond with something
reasonable I'll make the modules and sell em onlien for the cost of the
royalties. I don't think they'll respond with something reasonable, but
hey they might prove me wrong.

I'm aware of the differences of the differences in opinion on this list.
I'll try to avoid adding to the traffic by just posting mine on my
website, since that's what it's for anyway 8)

--B
Lynn Allan
2005-04-26 18:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Glassey
OK, subject to anyone objecting I am asking to take over copyright
duties (I have emailed people already with some ideas but Troy is
offline at the mo).
Daniel G.,

Just wondering if there are any updates you can report? ESV?

And your efforts for taking on this (thankless?) task are appreciated.
Daniel Glassey
2005-04-28 20:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn Allan
Post by Daniel Glassey